Shining Dodecahedron

One geek's views on role-playing and games in general.

This place is all about discussing paper-and-pencil roleplaying games. I'm Jay, and I run this joint, but that doesn't make me smarter than you. This will all work best if I say things, and you say what you think about them, lather, rinse, repeat. With luck we can all understand the hobby a little better. If you have a topic that you would like me to start a thread about, post a comment here. If you've got something to say about characters (my ongoing topic du jour), post a comment here.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005

Poll Time! Your best games

It's been a while since I posted because I've been busy working on and playtesting Gallant. I'll be posting some specifics here soon. In the meantime, here's a little question to chew on:

Think back to your most enjoyable gaming. Really think about what made it enjoyable for you. Was it the system? The GM? The other players? The setting? The plot?

Now check your work. Think about your least enjoyable gaming. What made it bad for you? Was the thing you identified as good from the previous question missing from the bad sessions?

Essentially, think about what your "secret ingredient" for good gaming is.

Then discuss.

I'll start.

My secret ingredient is engagement. Not the same thing as immersion, if we could agree on a definition for that one (which we probably can't). By engagement I mean that all the players are engaged in what's going on in the shared imaginary space. There isn't a lot of table talk (at least not talk unrelated to the game). People are all paying attention, making suggestions, and obviously interested in the proceedings.
It may sound simple, but it takes a special mix of good GMing, good playing, and a system that is either engaging by itself or at least does not bog play down with handling time.


Blogger Unknown said...

I think I know what you mean by engagement.

And I respond with a "meh".

Meh, because saying that engagement is an important part of gaming is like saying 'fun' is an important part of gaming. The proper response being "duh". Of course everyone has to be involved and interested in the game for it to be entertaining. That's fundimental in my book.

I'll take your invitation and talk about the best game I've ever had.

It was a year-long Mage campaign. 26 bi-weekly sessions as I recall. The bit that I remember the most, the moment of gaming that shines brightly seven years after the game was finished, was a scene where one character was about to drown, handcuffed to a sinking ship. Another character could teleport and was on the sinking ship in an effort to save the other. But then the teleporter got hurt. Getting hurt a second time would mean that his chances of successfully teleporting out with his friend in tow would drop -dramatically-.

I told the teleporter player; If you fail your next Swim roll you might take more damage. If you take more damage then you might not be able to even teleport yourself out of here. So, you can teleport yourself out to safety now, or you can make a swim roll to try to find your buddy. What do you do?

The teleporter player started -shaking-. Shaking! He was pouring over his character sheet, looking for a forgotten advantage, but there wasn't one. He could hardly hold his character sheet steady enough to read it!

Emotional investment in both his character and the other PC, coupled with the thematic choice of safety for self or risk for both. That's what made the best game I ever had.

Too bad it was a case of five minutes of golden gaming packed tightly into about 250 hours of play.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:37:00 PM  
Blogger Jonas Karlsson said...

Ok, I'll bite.

It's really hard, of course, to choose just one game as the most enjoyable, but I think I have something appropriate. The most and least enjoyable games I'll pick are both ten years old. I had lots of good and bad gaming since, but they are easy to compare since it was with the same group. I substitute "game" with "campaign", since I had both good and bad experiences with both games, but there are two specific campaigns that spring to mind.

The most enjoyable campaign was with Wastelands, a Swedish post-apocalypse alien-invasion game, with an old-school "realistic" system. The group was made up of two smaller social groups who started role-playing together, with me and another guy, M, alternating as game masters. When I game mastered we had an improvised campaign where the characters could go anywhere in a Mad Max version of Sweden doing whatever they liked. What was cool was that all the separate adventures formed into a greater whole, and people really tried to apply their characters to the different situations they found themselves in. I made a conscious effort to always make the player characters, and the players, look cool and even fudged rolls to get there. When M game mastered, though, the PC:s were always out-cooled by NPC:s, either in rival gangs or as people helping us.

The least enjoyable was with the same group, but a different game. This time it was Kult, a Swedish modern-horror game, with a similar system to Wastelands. This time I was the only GM, and we played a published campaign called the Black Madonna. It starts in Germany, where the characters all get infected by a terrible disease and have to get rid of it. They travel through Germany and later on into Russia. The problem was that M wanted to play a certain type of non-human character, something I didn't know until I had already promised another guy to do that, and I only wanted one of that type in the group. M spent the rest of the, later aborted, campaign trying to sabotage the group through the actions of his character. He tried to join the dark side and screw the group and he managed to convince the other players to have their characters take a car and run away from the non-human character. This put a lot of strain on me, as I didn't want to play police and mediator to the group to keep them together.

So what was the difference? One thing that immediately jumps out is the fact that the enjoyable campaign was improvised and the non-enjoyable was pre-written. In the later case I had to force the characters to get involved, but then failed to involve the players. Another thing is that in the former case the characters and players looked cool, and in the latter at least one of them, M, had to play a character he didn't like, and had to see another player handle the "cool" character. But I think the most important thing that made the former enjoyable was that the group actively tried to have fun together, while in latter case they tried to disrupt play and make it non-fun. This was an attempt to sabotage the game to get back on someone for things that had gone wrong on a social contract level.

"Secret ingredient": The group has to work together.

Thursday, August 11, 2005 4:19:00 AM  
Blogger Bankuei said...


I had a 2 year long Feng Shui game. I attribute the fun to a few factors- none of the players were hardcore gamers, we all had similar exposure to movies and comics and shared an aesthetic based on that, and we drifted hard into Narrativism somewhere along the way.

My least fun experience had to be playing in a Rifts game where the GM basically punished our characters because we played them smart and whalloped his big mess of demons without having to actually fight. For the few sessions we tried, nothing really happened or had any kind of logical connection.

Engagement? Sure. But I think the key difference between the two experiences was more than that- it was the ability to communicate and get on the same page. The former led us into narrativism, the latter led to a struggle between us players and the GM.

It was a matter of whether the Social Contract was working in the first place, before we could even get to engagment.

Friday, August 12, 2005 10:20:00 AM  
Blogger John Harper said...

I, too, had a kick-ass, Nar-drifted, 2-year-long Feng Shui game. Weird. It's the best long series I've ever been involved with. Engagement, indeed.

Player authorship was a big deal in that game. The stuff that mattered to the players was the stuff we addressed, period. Sometimes that stuff was totally external to the characters (Save the World type stuff) and sometimes it was totally character-focused (my ex-wife is trying to kill me). But, whatever it was, we did it because the players (including me, the GM) were desperate to do it. I learned a lot from that series.

Saturday, August 13, 2005 2:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've had a two year (-esque) Nobilis campaign. To Live And Die In Starlight. It was epic, it was grand, and it was intensely personal. It started at Destiney's funeral.

I like epics, I like impressive special effects and I like to have stories written large all over the sky. But if you ask me what "made" it for me, the real answer's been said already:

Engagement, of course. Emotional investment, absolutely. Hard choices to make, and the consequences that come with them. Knowing that it's down to the line, this one matters, and there's no one else to do it but you.

Sunday, August 14, 2005 5:13:00 AM  
Blogger Jay Loomis said...

Yes, Engagement is a no brainer to many of us. Is it easy to get? No.

There are also gamers who don't care whether they have it or not. I've played with many people who, when their character isn't in a scene, zone out, read comics, chat with one another, do laundry, or whatever. When it's their character's scene, they get in and play. But when the spotlight isn't on them, they don't pay much attention.
These same folks, if asked, will often tell you that they are enjoying the game. So I don't agree that we can just assume, as Eric does, that "saying that engagement is an important part of gaming is like saying 'fun' is an important part of gaming".
I can also say with confidence that I've had fun playing in games that were not engaging to all involved. It's just a different kind of fun.
I'm hearing a lot about hard choices for characters and players working together and being on the same page. So how do you get those things? Bankuei points to social contract issues, which is true I think. But what issues, and how do you get it working? I mean, the truth of the game is that you play with the group that you have. So instead of figuring out what you need and then magically finding a group that jives with that, more often thatn not you have to make your desires mesh with the rest of the group and arrive at a social contract that everyone can work with. Oh, and unless you're playing with other theorists, you probably can't talk explicitly about the social contract because it can make gamers uncomfortable. I, for one, still don't really know how to make this work in real life situations. Anyone have any insight?

Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not to seem contrary, because I do understand the point behind Mr. Loomis' query; but I don't know that I can offer the concrete answers he seeks to either question.

I can think of many games I enjoyed for various reasons, both for those reasons already offered by the previous respondents to this topic and reasons more unique to myself. And I can think of many other games that, for me, stunk to various degrees (honestly, who can't?). And I can certainly think of memorable gaming moments: some of which had to do with the actual game I was playing, most which did not.

However, evaluating gradations within either the "good" and "bad" categories, seems a bit pointless to me. The combination of factors that take a game from "bad" and make it the "worst" are considerably more complicated and subjective then the combination of factors that made the game "bad" to begin with. And it pretty much goes without saying that all "bad" games have the same status in our eyes when it's all said and done: the status of never being willingly played again. The semantics of reaching that status are relevent to each of us from the standpoint of avoiding those circumstances in the future. However, as already mentioned, that is a common characteristic of any "bad" game. I don't know that I've ever been so desperate to play a game, any game, that I felt I had to choose a "bad" game over a "worse" game. There's just too many "good" games out there.

Essentially the same principle applies to "good" and "best" games. Granted, I might prefer to play one game over another if I thought it the more fun of the two. Honestly though, if I found both games fun, that's not much of a decision process (generally something akin to flipping a coin...).

Marking distinctions in experience between "bad", "indifferent", and "good" makes sense to me. Trying to mark distinctions between "bad" and "worst", and between "good" and "best", just encourages me to suggest one go out and play a game or two one has enjoyed, rather then just talk about it. We all have good and bad memories of specific gaming events. But the combination of factors for either type of memory are, all too frequently, impossible to reproduce, even with the same game.

Monday, August 15, 2005 5:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My best single session was a game of Ars Magica. I can't remember a moment where the system did anything to help the game along particularly.

It was a prelude in which the PC's were on their apprentice's gauntlet. They had to get to Fraxinetum, heading from a hillside in central France. They awoke amidst the Children's Crusade and followed their trail, knowing the fate of the children.

When the game ended, and it was time for the kids to go one way towards Marseilles and for the players to head the other towards Fraxinetum, it was so sad. You could feel it in the room.

I can still remember what the snow sounded like as it fell when we left that game, at 5 in the morning. I was elated, so were the two gamers who had played.

I think it was the perfect plot for those two people. The kids on the crusade were all based on kids I had met at after-school programs where I was working.

One of those gamers is now a high school english teacher. The other spent the past seven years working as an A.D.A. persecuting criminals who hurt children. It was the right plot at the right moment for the perfect table.

That was my finest single night of gaming.

Least enjoyable...I'm going to say my least enjoyable when I run, otherwise this won't be too constructive.

When I run and it sucks it is because I am hazy on the system and don't want to make a roll happen because I'm scared that my lack of system knowledge will eff the game, when in fact the lack of conflict effs the game.

The plot of my shitty games was largely non-existent.

I found this happened in my Deadlands games. It was a game with a brilliant structure, a traveling show, going from town to town.

I wish I'd had Dogs in the Vineyard to run it with. That would have hard.

My secret ingredient is direction. My good games have direction, oomph and plenty of tough decisions for the players to make while still interacting with each other and interesting NPC's.

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Thursday, April 12, 2007 9:35:00 PM  

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